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	<title>Comments on: liberals &amp; conservatives: a plague on both their houses!</title>
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	<link>http://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/</link>
	<description>discovering signs of god's tomorrow</description>
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		<title>By: Monte</title>
		<link>http://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/#comment-259</link>
		<dc:creator>Monte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Oct 2006 23:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/#comment-259</guid>
		<description>I wonder if what both views have in common is their Christological anemia.  

Both offer exhaustive theories, replete with Biblical examples, of why opinion X is wrong or right.  But Jesus himself has been sorted out of the equation:  whether opinion X is demonstrably his own becomes immaterial.  The Bible&#039;s details become our picture of God, subtly supplanting the Master as the ultimate representation of God. Perhaps we see the Bible as explaining God rather than hearing Jesus Christ explaining the Bible.  You think?  This may be some fallout of the inerrancy wars, which left behind a reluctance to regard the stories of Jesus as more definitive than the writings of the apostles and prophets. 

As the years go by, I find myself uncertain of more and more elements of theology, and even somewhat reluctant to proclaim them, for they appear so vaguely in Scripture.  But I find myself more and more certain that God is there, and that every time he reveals himself to me he looks just like Jesus Christ, and that this Jesus is wanting to flood his presence into each synapse of my thought and action.

As for &quot;liberal&quot; and &quot;conservative&quot; - these things seem so pale and irrelevant!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if what both views have in common is their Christological anemia.  </p>
<p>Both offer exhaustive theories, replete with Biblical examples, of why opinion X is wrong or right.  But Jesus himself has been sorted out of the equation:  whether opinion X is demonstrably his own becomes immaterial.  The Bible&#8217;s details become our picture of God, subtly supplanting the Master as the ultimate representation of God. Perhaps we see the Bible as explaining God rather than hearing Jesus Christ explaining the Bible.  You think?  This may be some fallout of the inerrancy wars, which left behind a reluctance to regard the stories of Jesus as more definitive than the writings of the apostles and prophets. </p>
<p>As the years go by, I find myself uncertain of more and more elements of theology, and even somewhat reluctant to proclaim them, for they appear so vaguely in Scripture.  But I find myself more and more certain that God is there, and that every time he reveals himself to me he looks just like Jesus Christ, and that this Jesus is wanting to flood his presence into each synapse of my thought and action.</p>
<p>As for &#8220;liberal&#8221; and &#8220;conservative&#8221; &#8211; these things seem so pale and irrelevant!</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/#comment-250</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/#comment-250</guid>
		<description>Hello again, Lawrence - I&#039;ve only just found your reply to my comment on &quot;does god actually make a difference?&quot; and these 2 issues link here, I think. I agree with this broad approach to finding common ground between the two dominant wings of Christian tradition - which I find bound together not only by Myers on Mark&#039;s Jesus &quot;Binding the Strong Man&quot;, but also by Wink&#039;s analysis of the Domination System. I think the idea of Jesus offering incisive critiques of &#039;the system&#039; (within which we are alienated from one another, complicit with the myth of redemptive violence, and dehumanised) functions in this &#039;narrative&#039; way - and it is something which can resonate with the confident claims of more conservative-minded people and liberals who seek social transformation. But having said that, I do find myself inhabiting a world that is starkly different from the one apparently inhabited by many conservatives - in fact, common ground can look very unlikely -so in terms of &#039;evangelising&#039; the good news, I can&#039;t help but feel there are very different &quot;gospels&quot; to proclaim. I might prefer if it were not the case, but sometimes I wonder if it would not be more helpful to acknowledge plural Christianities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello again, Lawrence &#8211; I&#8217;ve only just found your reply to my comment on &#8220;does god actually make a difference?&#8221; and these 2 issues link here, I think. I agree with this broad approach to finding common ground between the two dominant wings of Christian tradition &#8211; which I find bound together not only by Myers on Mark&#8217;s Jesus &#8220;Binding the Strong Man&#8221;, but also by Wink&#8217;s analysis of the Domination System. I think the idea of Jesus offering incisive critiques of &#8216;the system&#8217; (within which we are alienated from one another, complicit with the myth of redemptive violence, and dehumanised) functions in this &#8216;narrative&#8217; way &#8211; and it is something which can resonate with the confident claims of more conservative-minded people and liberals who seek social transformation. But having said that, I do find myself inhabiting a world that is starkly different from the one apparently inhabited by many conservatives &#8211; in fact, common ground can look very unlikely -so in terms of &#8216;evangelising&#8217; the good news, I can&#8217;t help but feel there are very different &#8220;gospels&#8221; to proclaim. I might prefer if it were not the case, but sometimes I wonder if it would not be more helpful to acknowledge plural Christianities.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/#comment-247</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/#comment-247</guid>
		<description>I agree wholeheartedly with what you have just said, Lawrence.  It has been my experience that I CAN find a link between the two extremes through the narrative approach.  My problem has been that I cannot make some people see that there is this common ground on which we stand.  I often find that they have this demand - that what they say IS truth and that it is not up for debate.

Some of the arguments are so simplistic that I can&#039;t understand why supposedly intelligent people use them.   For instance, I have heard others referred to as not being Christian because &quot;they have not been saved.&quot;   Yet the truth is that they ARE saved without anything being required of them.   God has done it all, unconditionally through the death and resurrection of Jesus.   They may reject Jesus, but have still been saved.  Yet others tell me that unless someone steps forward to accept salvation it has not happened.  My argument is that it is a matter of history that salvation has been given.

Last year I was in the home of a fundamentalist and I remarked how beautiful was the poetry in the Book of Job.  &quot;Yes,&quot; he said, &quot;and it&#039;s all true.&quot;   I had to be polite and say no more.  But I wondered how any intelligent person could state that the story of Job was actual truth and that there was a witness at the &quot;Heavenly board meeting&quot;.   For my part I could see the truth the story was telling and this I think is the argument you are putting.

I have found this hard to put into words as my 15 year old grandson has kept putting his head round my study door, talking about fishing rods!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree wholeheartedly with what you have just said, Lawrence.  It has been my experience that I CAN find a link between the two extremes through the narrative approach.  My problem has been that I cannot make some people see that there is this common ground on which we stand.  I often find that they have this demand &#8211; that what they say IS truth and that it is not up for debate.</p>
<p>Some of the arguments are so simplistic that I can&#8217;t understand why supposedly intelligent people use them.   For instance, I have heard others referred to as not being Christian because &#8220;they have not been saved.&#8221;   Yet the truth is that they ARE saved without anything being required of them.   God has done it all, unconditionally through the death and resurrection of Jesus.   They may reject Jesus, but have still been saved.  Yet others tell me that unless someone steps forward to accept salvation it has not happened.  My argument is that it is a matter of history that salvation has been given.</p>
<p>Last year I was in the home of a fundamentalist and I remarked how beautiful was the poetry in the Book of Job.  &#8220;Yes,&#8221; he said, &#8220;and it&#8217;s all true.&#8221;   I had to be polite and say no more.  But I wondered how any intelligent person could state that the story of Job was actual truth and that there was a witness at the &#8220;Heavenly board meeting&#8221;.   For my part I could see the truth the story was telling and this I think is the argument you are putting.</p>
<p>I have found this hard to put into words as my 15 year old grandson has kept putting his head round my study door, talking about fishing rods!</p>
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		<title>By: Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/#comment-246</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s the hope, Keith: we&#039;ve actually moved beyond the classic evangelical/liberal divide in terms of the post-evangelical and post-liberal consensus.  That was my point in citing Brueggemann, who is a post-liberal.  He&#039;s refusing the terms of the old argument - in effect, the terms of the historical-critical debate.  There has been a similar move in the emergence of the post-evangelicals, which started (formally) with Dave Tomlinson&#039;s book, &lt;i&gt;The Post-evangelical&lt;/i&gt;.  That simply put down on paper what has been happening.  Take our own inimitable John Campbell, who is from that stable: he and Brueggemann, together with Marcus Borg (from the Jesus Seminar) would be in broad agreement - or, should I say, the relationship wouldn&#039;t be one of &lt;i&gt;conflict&lt;/i&gt; but interested debate!  The differences - as well as points of convergence - are enriching rather than a source of division.  

What characterises the consensus is an emphasis on story and narrative.  The issue is to take with utmost serious how the evangelists (in the case of the gospels) construct their narratives.  The task of interpretation is a &quot;conversation&quot; between 3 stories: the biblical story (of Jesus and the NT Church), the contemporary individual story and the contemporary communal/socio-politcal story.  Brueggemann sees the role of the biblical story in this conversation as providing the &quot;third world of evangelical imagination&quot;, and I find that a particularly helpful way of characterising it.

When the emphasis is on &lt;i&gt;narrative&lt;/i&gt;, a prime exegetical task is to pay the closest attention to how the story &quot;works&quot;.  The underlying assumption is that the story is &lt;i&gt;true&lt;/i&gt;, but &quot;ture&quot; in the sense that stories are true: they tell us truth in storied form.  In other words, the biblical &quot;truth&quot; is inextricably narrative in form and content.  This means that we are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; into a &quot;demythologisation&quot; programme, because this would be a &quot;de-storying&quot; exercise (I&#039;ve just thought: rearrange those letters and you get &quot;destroying&quot;!).  We&#039;re not constantly searching for &quot;the historical kernel&quot;, as though &quot;true&quot;=&quot;historical&quot;.  Rather, we allow the narrative form to do its proper work.  Let me give you a concrete example: Mark uses geography symbolically.  The new approach allows us to concentrate on what he does it &lt;i&gt;for&lt;/i&gt;, rather than to assume that Mark is either &quot;correct&quot; or &quot;mistaken&quot; about &quot;what actually happened&quot;.  Similarly, he portrays Jesus as at war with &quot;The Strong Man&quot; (Satan).  A narrative approach isn&#039;t interested in how we ought to conceive of Satan &lt;i&gt;outside&lt;/i&gt; the story, but rather how the Satan character functions &lt;i&gt;within&lt;/i&gt; it.  It may be fine to ask that other question: the point is that we needn&#039;t spend hours and pages discussing it as part of the &lt;i&gt;exegetical&lt;/i&gt; task!

This is something we&#039;re finding really helpful in bridging the gap between liberals and evangelicals within the URC (lower or upper case!).  I&#039;d be interested in your response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the hope, Keith: we&#8217;ve actually moved beyond the classic evangelical/liberal divide in terms of the post-evangelical and post-liberal consensus.  That was my point in citing Brueggemann, who is a post-liberal.  He&#8217;s refusing the terms of the old argument &#8211; in effect, the terms of the historical-critical debate.  There has been a similar move in the emergence of the post-evangelicals, which started (formally) with Dave Tomlinson&#8217;s book, <i>The Post-evangelical</i>.  That simply put down on paper what has been happening.  Take our own inimitable John Campbell, who is from that stable: he and Brueggemann, together with Marcus Borg (from the Jesus Seminar) would be in broad agreement &#8211; or, should I say, the relationship wouldn&#8217;t be one of <i>conflict</i> but interested debate!  The differences &#8211; as well as points of convergence &#8211; are enriching rather than a source of division.  </p>
<p>What characterises the consensus is an emphasis on story and narrative.  The issue is to take with utmost serious how the evangelists (in the case of the gospels) construct their narratives.  The task of interpretation is a &#8220;conversation&#8221; between 3 stories: the biblical story (of Jesus and the NT Church), the contemporary individual story and the contemporary communal/socio-politcal story.  Brueggemann sees the role of the biblical story in this conversation as providing the &#8220;third world of evangelical imagination&#8221;, and I find that a particularly helpful way of characterising it.</p>
<p>When the emphasis is on <i>narrative</i>, a prime exegetical task is to pay the closest attention to how the story &#8220;works&#8221;.  The underlying assumption is that the story is <i>true</i>, but &#8220;ture&#8221; in the sense that stories are true: they tell us truth in storied form.  In other words, the biblical &#8220;truth&#8221; is inextricably narrative in form and content.  This means that we are <i>not</i> into a &#8220;demythologisation&#8221; programme, because this would be a &#8220;de-storying&#8221; exercise (I&#8217;ve just thought: rearrange those letters and you get &#8220;destroying&#8221;!).  We&#8217;re not constantly searching for &#8220;the historical kernel&#8221;, as though &#8220;true&#8221;=&#8221;historical&#8221;.  Rather, we allow the narrative form to do its proper work.  Let me give you a concrete example: Mark uses geography symbolically.  The new approach allows us to concentrate on what he does it <i>for</i>, rather than to assume that Mark is either &#8220;correct&#8221; or &#8220;mistaken&#8221; about &#8220;what actually happened&#8221;.  Similarly, he portrays Jesus as at war with &#8220;The Strong Man&#8221; (Satan).  A narrative approach isn&#8217;t interested in how we ought to conceive of Satan <i>outside</i> the story, but rather how the Satan character functions <i>within</i> it.  It may be fine to ask that other question: the point is that we needn&#8217;t spend hours and pages discussing it as part of the <i>exegetical</i> task!</p>
<p>This is something we&#8217;re finding really helpful in bridging the gap between liberals and evangelicals within the URC (lower or upper case!).  I&#8217;d be interested in your response.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wol1959.wordpress.com/2006/08/15/liberals-conservatives-a-plague-on-both-their-houses/#comment-245</guid>
		<description>Lawrence, I think I totally agree with you.  It&#039;s just those ever such long words you theologians understand completely and I don&#039;t!

On the one hand we have the conservatives who will probably be the worst obstacle to climb when the emerging church emerges. So many of them are, by reference to their professions, intelligent people, but they keep their eyes closed and insist on believing their fundamentalist unsupportable beliefs.

As for the liberals, I thought I belonged to them by challenging everything I read in the Bible and finding solid explanations for what appeared to be miracles and picture language.  Finally I realise that I am an evangelical who uses constructively the common sense I was born with.

It has taken some time but I now know where I stand.  I suppose it is a case of letting the pendulum swing to one extremity and then the other before settling somewhere in between.

But I do see a problem with the wide apart stances of the liberals and the conservatives.  How can we achieve a united reformed church (note the lower case) of Jesus Christ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lawrence, I think I totally agree with you.  It&#8217;s just those ever such long words you theologians understand completely and I don&#8217;t!</p>
<p>On the one hand we have the conservatives who will probably be the worst obstacle to climb when the emerging church emerges. So many of them are, by reference to their professions, intelligent people, but they keep their eyes closed and insist on believing their fundamentalist unsupportable beliefs.</p>
<p>As for the liberals, I thought I belonged to them by challenging everything I read in the Bible and finding solid explanations for what appeared to be miracles and picture language.  Finally I realise that I am an evangelical who uses constructively the common sense I was born with.</p>
<p>It has taken some time but I now know where I stand.  I suppose it is a case of letting the pendulum swing to one extremity and then the other before settling somewhere in between.</p>
<p>But I do see a problem with the wide apart stances of the liberals and the conservatives.  How can we achieve a united reformed church (note the lower case) of Jesus Christ?</p>
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